I totally agree with the comments that Holly had made. I too, had voted for Prop 8 in CA. Yes, it was a struggle to decide; however, when my decision was placed on what I firmly believe is true of the bible, then I was able to cast my vote. I have friends and even family members who are gay/lesbian. I love them dearly and will always accept them as such. But, as much as I accept them, I do not approve of their behavior/choice. It's a difficult concept for many people to "separate the sin from the sinner". God calls us to do just that for any other type of sin. We are all sinners and as followers of Christ, if we identify with that, are all saved by His grace and mercy alone.

Thank you for this deeply personal essay on why you chose to vote for this proposition.

I think it is essential for we Christians to become more vigilant and vocal about what our faith entails.

I truly believe that our sinful actions over generations impacts our genetic makeup and when someone is born with homosexual tendencies the environment then influences how those tendencies develop or not.

Even so, we always have free will in whether to act on these tendencies or any tendencies we are born with. I am encouraged by the testimonies of those who found help via Exodus International to resist acting on tendencies which would lead one to sin.

I am no expert on the issue of homosexuality. However, in reading my Bible which I believe to be the inspired word of God, I have discovered that homosexuality is a sin and so is fornication, pornography, gossiping, self-righteousness...need I continue? I once read a novel in which a man had left his wife and taken in a gay lover. The wife's pastor, in counseling, told her that it is true that some people are born gay...to the extent that each one of us is born with an inclination to sin. Some are inclined to stealing, others to homosexuality. Having said that she added that it for this reason we all need Jesus to guide us because without Him we would all be slaves to sin...whatever element of it attracts us most! What would Jesus do if He were talking to the gay community? I believe He would tell them that He loves them and just like He told the woman caught in adultery He would embrace them and tell them to sin no more.

I'm a gay woman, and opposed to gays getting married legally. The leader of my home church (straight male) has just divorced his wife (straight woman). They had been married twenty five years. An associate of his has dumped his wife. The concept of marriage as a covenant has been diminished by gays marriage. Would either of those men have found it so easy to be worldly if marriage wasn't taken so casually? I am celibate now, that is what God asks. Gay Christians don't seem to want to make that sacrifice.

Dawn, thank you for your blog. I think you have stated things I never thought about. Morality has already been legislated. I never thought of that. It gives me something to say when people say Christians are pushing their morality on others. Even though others besides Christians do the same thing with more force. I think you are an example of showing God's love to sinners but, standing by God's authority.

Holly what a great article. I particularily enjoyed the response you shared from your professor about laws being the imposition of someones value. It allowed me to see legislation in a new light and I have a lot to think about now, my husband will also enjoy reading this article as well.
You asked why God allowed a homosexual attraction and yet standard goes to the heterosexual couple...I feel the answer lies in free will. Often I struggle with 'attractions' that I cant allow myself to relish in whether it be too much computer time instead of playtime w/ my kiddos or giving into an attitude of frustration when it is the easy thing to do instead of joyfulness ect... There are a lot of attractions to life that as Christians we are to guard ourselves from, sin can be pleasurable, but that doesnt make it right. The attraction for premarital sex is huge right now, but the standard of our Lord is postmarriage. If our attractions and thoughts were dictated we would miss out on the beautiful choice we were given to love and serve our Father while living here on earth, it would have been a built in response instead of what it is. I have a family member and a few friends who have choosen the homosexual lifestyle and often to support the person and not the act is hard for me, another thing I struggle with, but thru prayer this is possible too :)

Hi Holly
Thanks for your post. I too have been wondering about the boundaries between love for those who are outside the Kingdom and honouring Kingdom rules and values. Your post has helped me understand a bit more clearly.
Blessings.

Excellent outline

I too found the decision obvious, yet painfully difficult. Thank you for putting my exact reasons for voting for Prop 8 into print.

I guess that is the nature of most sins, that they are attractive when you are tempted and guilt sets in once the sin is done.

The Bible says that, "....God does not tempt anyone" (Jas1v13). I do not think that God permits attraction between people of the same sex. I think man's permissiveness has fueled increase in homosexual attraction. Some after failing the sexual purity that God desires have turned around trying to sugar-coat and embrace all manner of in-ordinate sexual practices including homosexuality. We must not call good that which is evil. We must not have companionship with it too, because of the risk that familarity breeds acceptance.

God's holiness, goodness, and justice is ultimately the best. However, by voting for Proposition 8, it is debatable whether this is in any way enhanced.

Soemtimes our actions we thought it was for good, and for God, turn out to be for worst and perhaps even against God.

It is important to come back to our mandate and commission as Christians - to preach the Gospel. We can't go wrong.

http://www.psa91.com/followingjesus.htm

Well said. For that last part, well why does God permit anything? Because he has given us a free will, so the choice is up to us. And we have an enemy, who has never created anything, he can't create, so he distorts, twists things around. So man's will and distortion, and that is what you get.

Very well written and thought provoking. This has been an uncomfortable subject for many to discuss. I appreciate the truths explained in a loving manner yet with unwavering conviction.

Holly.

U are wonderful! Got the basics right. The ultimate authority is God. In this case even Allah and many other 'gods' are in agreement! Political correctness is not the new standard. God still is teh ultimate! Good writing.

I agree that God does not cause us to do anything wrong. He gives us free will, and the devil has power to confuse and deceive us. We may be tempted, but we have a way out, and that is God. He want force us to chose the right path, but He will help us when these temptations come.

When this temptation comes as any other temptation we need to read God's word and ask Him to open our hearts and minds to what is right.

This is a very relevant article in our world today. I am not a judge to judge others. Of late God has rebuked me on praying over some difficult issues than keep on talking. Yet God principles stand and nothing can change them. I believe what we see today is a result of man's indulgence, diminished fear of God and holiness. Therefore "God has given them to... the lusts of their hearts...thus man leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another...."Read Rom 1:20ff.

I have alot of thoughts and questions on people born with same sex attraction, but as with alot of my questions, I am reminded that it's all in God's hands. But, I really don't think most people make that "choice". It's too hard a life to "choose" this option. I do believe people are born with same sex attraction. My questions to those making it sound like a simple choice to be gay or lesbian would be, "What if you were born hetrosexual in a homosexual world; Could you pretend to be homosexual just to be like the majority? " I'm a woman who has been happily married to the same man for 31 years, how would a gay couple getting married hurt my marriage?

God is the ultimate authority for Christians.

The Constitution is the final authority for the laws of the United States.

Although I, too, voted in favor of Proposition 8 based on my belief in the Bible as God's Holy Word, I believe that it will ultimately be found unconstitutional and a denial of equal protection under the law. I do NOT believe that religious arguments have a place in public discourse as I wouldn't want to live under Sharia should the majority of citizens be Muslim.

Therefore, my personal conscience dictates that I vote based on my religious views. However, if I were to pass judgement on Prop 8 as a justice evaluating it based not on the Bible but on the Constitution, I would have to strike it down.

I support gay marriage because it is important to not remove a human right. It comes down to love and the right to love.

Marriage is no longer a life long commitment ( I wish it were). The law should include everyone, not some antiquated ideal.

People will try to get their lifestyles approved by the general public so that they can be "justified" in their sin. No one is "born" gay. We were all born into sin through Adam. With that said, all sin is separation from God no matter what the title. We either serve our flesh or we serve our God. Man is depraved and nothing we do makes us righteous. Only the blood of Christ can do that and only if we repent of our sin, ask for forgiveness and live in obedience to Him. I have family and friends that are gay. The reason most of us have a problem with this particular sin in speaking out against it is because it's an "identity issue" for the person who is claiming to be gay, and so when we speak out against gay rights they take it that we are rejecting them as a "human being" because as they believe, "they can't help it, they were born this way." When we as Christians know that is not the case at all! We are fallen people and without God we are all capable of choosing to serve our flesh no matter what the "title" of the sin is. We have to speak out against "all" sin. Jesus did.

I have been thinking about this angle too: isn't sexuality a transmittable genetic trait, like height or eye color? Has anyone proven medically that it's genetcally transmitted?

Does sin include only things that you can choose or not choose to do? Or does sin include things that you are genetically programmed to do?

Assuming that sexual nature/orientation is a genetically transmitted trait, as some experts argue, is it still a sin to engage in it?

Another thing that's really bothering me is the argument that "Maybe the church should go after divorced people...Jesus really does have a lot to say, directly, on that issue. He does not have much to say on homosexuality, and the homosexuality of His day was different from that today, anyway. The church is hypocritical in this, so we don't need to trust or respect its teachings on gay issues."

When I come across these arguments, I don't know what to say. Thanks for your thoughts on this very challenging and emotionally difficult topic! BJ

Very well said! Unfortunately there are too many Christians these days that are bending God's "rules" for living in favor of keeping others happy and that really frustrates me. I can only imagine how God feels!
My brother-in-law is gay and living with a partner. We as a family still love them, but as Christians we cannot condone their lifestyle. It is important that we, as Christians, remember how important it is to read the bible and vote out of God's will and not ours. As hard as it is to live by sometimes we need to seek to find who God says He is, instead of trying to make Him who we want Him to be.

I enjoyed your well written article on prop 52

Dec. 3rd, 2008

Debbie's comment on Dec 2, 2008 was right on. Not because I "think" so, but because our incredible Creator of the Universe "says" so. Read it in His Book.

God's truth must never be compromised. If we do,we are then proposing to know more than God. How arrogant, how satan, how Adam, how us, in the flesh. Romans 3:23

Our Holy God commands us in Exodus 20 not to make yourself a "graven image", and that is exactly what we do when we try and make God how "we" want Him to be instead of who He really is in the Bible.

You either choose to trust and love God, His Word, and His truths fully or you choose to trust in yourself. Who will it be, my friend?

It cannot be both and God leaves this serious choice up to us. Heaven or Hell, which will it be?

Proverbs 3: 5 & 6

Thank you for your honesty and clear thoughts...I have a gay friend who used to be a worship leader in his church before he adopted the gay lifestyle...I am one of the few christians he still talks to because so many have been judgemental and nasty to him...it is very important to separate the sin from the sinner...I also agree with the fact that many churches would be emptied if the members were to be judged by their sexual life...it is easy to keep things hidden under a veneer of the "christian look". May God have mercy on christians who spend their time judging instead of reaching out with the love of God to those in need...

Where in the bible does it specifically say that God is against Homosexuality? The above article was well written & thought provoking, but I fail to see where God said he is against Gays. I see where Christians have interpreted that God is against gays. God is against adultry & premarital sex. If a gay couple is devoted to each other then why shouldn't they be married. If they are in a loving monogamist relationship, then I hope that God would appreciate the loving, kind people that they are. Is your marriage the way that God intended it to be. Are you loving, faithful, devoted & respectful to your spouse? Maybe you should be looking at your life more, & not focused on gay marriage that will not affect your marriage in anyway.

Debbie, get real! This is way beyond just 'justifying' anybody's sins. This is not something you could say you fully understand until you are born with it. Try to put yourself in their shoes, if you felt you were born 'that way' wouldn't you want the same rights as everyone else?

I agree with Daisy, it does come down to love and the right to love. Isn't that one of God's greatest gifts along with FREE WILL? Why can't we just let them express their love and commitment to one another? You have no right to block God's gift! You think you're so righteous don't you? Well guess what, that does not guarrantee you a seat in heaven.

Why not just leave it to God and let those people be? God made us all different but he loves his creation all the same.

Open your eyes people. This whole issue is bigger than just deciding whether gays should be allowed to get married or not.

The point is that there are those of us who do NOT believe as you do, and therefore do not want laws and legislations imposed on us based on your bronze age myths.

I'm grateful that at least I live in a country with a secular government.

It's funny how you all say that you love your gay friends, and then in the same sentence you say that you're happy to take away their rights. Some friend you are.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is by defending your right to stone homosexuals, fornicators and adulterers to death? Your bible teaches you that too doesn't it? Or how about your right to sell your daughters into slavery? We all need a little extra cash from time to time.

Daisy said" I support gay marriage because it is important to not remove a human right. It comes down to love and the right to love.

Marriage is no longer a life long commitment ( I wish it were). The law should include everyone, not some antiquated ideal."

I think you ar failing to see the bigger picture here. Which is what I feel gay people are also missing. Loving someone is not just a human right - it is a commandment from God - The greatest commandments are - "30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
31 The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." Mk 12:30-31 NIV

I think we all forget about the original 10 commandments which were given to us by God in the Old Testament through MOses which even those who do not accept Christ as God's Son and our Savior base their bible knowledge on.

So I have 2 things to say:

the ideal of marriage is as antiquated as the ideal that murder is not right so it is legislated as illegal and punishable by death in some states. These on not human ideals they are commandments from God.
The second is that in Gay people's search for acceptance they have completely lost the big picture. Yes we should continue to love them and not accept how they sin - we should be doing this for everyone who sins all beit extremely difficult sometimes. This whole agenda to get marraige for them legal is how they see themselves as finally being accepted in society. Oh yeah and it also gives them certain legal privelages afforded only to those people who are not sinning. This is where there ends up being a very big gap in equal rights to all. Currently many companies in the United States will allow a gay person's partner to be covered under their health insurance plan regardless of how long they have "lived together" but a heterosexual couple who live together must be doing this for 7 years and jump through hoops to prove this to get the same privelage. Gay coupls need only prove that they live at the same address.

I have so many more things I would love to comment on but I don't want to make this any longer lest my point be missed.

Michelle in RI

Dec 4th, 2008

Doesn't God and His Word have any value anymore? Since when does "feelings' and what "I think" or"if it doesn't hurt me", ever take presidence over God's righteousness?

God describes homosexuality as "vile passions", unnatural and shameful. It not only hurts families, it hurts children who are stuck with no choice to whether they are going to live with a mom and dad, or just any number of women or men trying to raise them without the other gender's impact.

Homosexuality affirms that a married mom and dad have no value. Children can do without.

How devastating! How selfish! How untrue!

Heterosexual marriage and family is God's Holy idea from the start. Satan's mission is to distort God's truths and to distract from God's ideal in order to destroy God's treasured humanity.

You are not "born into homosexuality" as the homosexual community would like you to believe. Genetic science can affirm this.

If you still are not convinced homosexuality is a sin, read Romans 1:18-32, God's Wrath on Unrighteousness.

Christians are too busy listening to the world's rhetoric instead of reading and holding true to God's Word. May I ask, "when was the last time you opened your Bibles to find truth?" No wonder Christians are not the lights to the world that God intends us to be.

The Bible says, our hearts are wicked and not to be trusted. We need only to read and obey the God of the Bible. God must be our Only Standard to follow, for He is the only One Worthy.

May I leave you with God's Words of warning in 2 Peter 3:17?

"You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from you own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked: but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I support gay marriage for many reasons, but only one will I state today. God gives us all free choice. Each and every one of us has the right to choose him and his will. It is for this reason alone that it is unconstitutional for the government to say whether or not gays can legally marry. My decision to marry someone of the same sex has no bearing on anyone else's life. Your marriage does not become any less valid once mine is validated. We do not vote on whether or not unwed mothers ought be allowed to keep their children conceived in "sin." That is their God given right to parent their children, as it is my right to wed the individual I choose to spend forever with. As Christians we should support people desire to be within God's will, and there are those that believe that covenant is sufficient. Why banish them to a life of fornication? We need to tune back in to God's word and realize that HE is the ultimate judge, not us. Voting to deny people their human rights is NOT the Christian thing to do. No matter how many scriptures you quote, judging others is still a sin. And one thing we all know (as Christians) is that the ONLY unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. So you had better get your act together Saints, or those gay people you so love to oppress will be enjoying heaven while you spend the rest of your high and mighty sanctified eternity in Hell.

I have trouble with the whole "defense of marriage" terminology. How do homosexual relationships threaten normal relationships? Perhaps if we feel like we have to defend our marriages they're not so strong after all.

BJ: "Assuming that sexual nature/orientation is a genetically transmitted trait, as some experts argue, is it still a sin to engage in it?"

Yes, it is. Consider that we are ALL as human beings 'genetically programmed' to desire power for ourselves, to be greedy and selfish, to do that which guarantees self-preservation over the well being of another. These things may be culturally and morally reprehensible in our eyes (in western culture and many others) but nevertheless we still WILL do them without Law and consequence to prevent it. Our heros, role models, sports players and celebrities, and leaders (economical and political) are primarily selfish, greedy, self-serving people. What does man do in the absence of God? What pleases him (man) rather than what pleases God.

We are called by God to be like Christ. This is impossible to do alone or by our own power, because we are all born with (genetically programmed) a sinful heart. Adding the scientific sounding term to it does not change the fact of what that means: we are PRONE to sin and absent of the will and power to do something else we will sin. Whether someone is 'born Gay' or not, God has clearly stated what his position is on that subject, just as he has regarding murder, greed, etc. In the same way a person who suffers from psychological problems but commits a serious crime should not be held completely innocent in the matter -- what they have done is sin (what punishment fits the crime in human law is different debate).

In God's eyes, these are all sin and he has called us to forsake it and live like Christ... there was no 'if you are not born prone to sin' clause in that mandate.

I'm not American, and I don't live in America - so my impression of American Christians is formed mostly by the news and websites like this one.

Whilst I probably would have voted Yes (if I was in the election) I do wonder if our decision is formed more by our culture that the gospel. I also wonder if we twist the bible to suit our ideas.

For example, we grab verses from the days of Moses and the Israelites, and a line from Hebrews to condemn what we don't like. At the same time, we ignore Matthew 19, where JESUS says one of the reasons men don't marry (women) is because God made them that way.

Meanwhile, on things Jesus is clear about - like not getting remarried after divorce - we are less vehement about.

Could it be that telling other people (eg gay people) how to live, is easier that stepping up to the mark ourselves?

Just some of my thoughts, as i do some self-examination.

In Cailfornia, Gay couples have the right to declare domestic partnership. This can provide many advantages such as health
benifits & depending upon the employer, many if not all
the same bennifits as a married couple. They also have the right to create living trusts in order to allow the partner all legal power & interest.
Because of these rights, discrimination is off the table. Gays have the same rights as married couples. They just can't claim married on their income taxes.
I am confident that all gays can understand that it is oppressive & an infringement on my rights to redefine the
definition & social meaning of marriage.
On the spiritual side of this issue, homosexuality is adultry.
pre marital sex is adultry & so are marital affairs. All sins being equal, God is the ultimate judge for each of us. We all know the sins are wrong.
I so wish we could put this issue aside after voting it down
3 times since 1979 . Lets use are energy to fight for equality in
other arenas such as health care for our seniors & all citizens alike.

I find it amusing that I submitted a carefully worded, non offensive comment, that seems to have been ignored.
I have put more thought into God & homosexuals since reading this article. While you probably will not agree with me, I hope you open your minds to the possibility that God is loves homosexuals & it is not a sin, if they are married. No where in the bible does it say that God is against Homosexuals. It has been wrongfully interpurted by Christians. Sodom & Gomorrah. A group of men come for another man & the father offers his 2 virgin daughters. They were virgins that were not being ask for in marriage, & they were being offered to a group of men...what do you think would happen? Maybe God did not specifically say he is against Homosexuals knowing that people would come to their own conclusions about how they think God feels, which is leading to Judgement. Christans do not have the right to judge anyone else, including homosexuals. God has said do not judge one another. Maybe that is the greater sin? Christians would not be hated as much, if they focused more on themselves & less on others.

For the record I am a Christian who has been married in a happy healthy hetrosexual marriage for 9-1/2 years. I do not know any gays, & do not begin to think I understand it one bit. I am trying to understand God.

Holly says:
Here are some passages on homosexuality:

Old Testament
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Genesis 19
(The people of these cities were involved in all kinds of sexual immorality, including rape, and sex with animals and children. This passage specifically mentions homosexuality.):

4Before Lot and his guests could go to bed, every man in Sodom, young and old, came and stood outside his house 5and started shouting, "Where are your visitors? Send them out, so we can have sex with them!"

Note that when God called for the destruction of cities in the Old Testament, it was because a city had become so reprehensible that God wouldn't put up with their sinfulness any longer. In records outside of the Bible, it has been shown that the Canaanites were highly promiscuous, would have sex with temple prostitutes as part of idol worship, would have sex with animals, and would rape and sacrifice children in the worship of idols. That's why God promised to give Canaan to the Israelites.

In the Law (Torah), Leviticus 18:22:
22It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man.

Leviticus 20:13:
13It's disgusting for men to have sex with one another, and those who do will be put to death, just as they deserve.

New Testament
The apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice that other types of sexual immorality--and specifically adultery--are included in this list along with homosexuality.

Romans 1
(In this chapter, Paul is outlining how man has turned away from God since creation):

24So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. 25They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God's creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen. 26God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. 27Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds.

1 Timothy 1:
8We know that the Law is good, if it is used in the right way. 9We also understand that it wasn't given to control people who please God, but to control lawbreakers, criminals, godless people, and sinners. It is for wicked and evil people, and for murderers, who would even kill their own parents. 10The Law was written for people who are sexual perverts or who live as homosexuals or are kidnappers or liars or won't tell the truth in court. It is for anything else that opposes the correct teaching 11of the good news that the glorious and wonderful God has given me.

In Paul's letter to Timothy, he includes a list of people who do things in opposition to the Mosaic Law (Torah). This isn't meant to be a comprehensive list, but rather, is a summary of some ways in which the Law is broken.

Big point here is homosexuality (as well as pre-marital and extra-marital sex--and, of course, beastiality, rape, and sex with minors) is in opposition to God's model for sex.

While Jesus never directly discusses homosexuality, he does offer an example of the Genesis creation account in discussing divorce:

Matthew 19:
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

One post to this blog (from David) said, "At the same time, we ignore Matthew 19, where JESUS says one of the reasons men don't marry (women) is because God made them that way."

What Jesus says refers to eunichs, men who are born with defects that make them unable to have sex:

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

David, if you are implying that Jesus is defending homosexuality here, that is a false characterization of this passage.

Always a good reminder: We need to be careful when we apply Scripture to our lives today to first consider the historical and cultural context in which it was given. And we need to not bend the meaning of words. This passage is about men who can't have sex: 1) due to birth defects, or 2) due to accidental or purposeful castration. It also discusses that some men won't marry (and will abstain from sex) because they have dedicated themselves to the work of ministry.

As a side note, the point Jesus is making in the Matthew 19 passage is that husbands and wives should stay married. Jewish law had been interpreted such that men could divorce their wives for any reason. I think this verse could be applied as a strong statement against no-fault divorce today.

Ok let just a couple of more things. Maybe I sounded a little angry on my last post, my apologies. I'll just point out that I am not American, nor do I live in America. I'm not gay, and I don't have any gay friends or family (at least that I know off). So this law that you have just passed does not affect me in any way. I'm not religious either, you would call me an atheist or agnostic or whatever.
So that was just to let you know where my point of view comes from.

The first point, which I tried to make before, is that religious scripture should NOT be a criteria for making laws and legislation... EVER. Period.
I find it strange that Americans claim to have separation of church and state, and yet the fact that this is even on the ballot totally contradicts that.

Second of all, why does this even matter to you? Nobody is asking you to change your lifestyle. They just want the same chance at happiness that you have. Your god will not punish you for granting gay couples their freedom to marry. I mean, aren't they going to hell anyway? Do you really think that you're "saving" them? They're still going to be gay, whether they're married or not. You've secured your little spot in heaven, so what are you worried about? Why can't you just let those fornicating homosexual heathens have their human rights?

And lastly I'll just say that in the 1960's African Americans fought and protested for their equal rights. As I understand it (and excuse me if I get it wrong, I'm not American) back then, in some states (not all states) blacks were not allowed to marry whites! Blacks weren't even allowed to vote! Let me ask you, how is this any different? You're doing the exact same thing, only this time instead of blacks, it against gays. In the end this nothing more than conservative right-wing discrimination.

Holly,

Thank you for this article and for your comments on the comments about your article. I always hear people say "the Bible says homosexuality is wrong", or "it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong". I'm glad you gave specific Scriptures to back up your article as well as other comments to your article.

Hi Holly,

Thanks for that extra insight on Matt 19.

I wasn't trying to imply any particular stance by Jesus. I think i was just exemplifying the ease of picking an isolated verse to support a cultural preference.

Leviticus describes it as 'disgusting', and says those involved are to be put to death. But i don't think you (or anyone else here) is suggesting capital punishment as the sentence. Meanwhile, leviticus also sentences to death anyone who curses their parents (how many of us would have made it through our teenage years?) and prevents men from trimming their beards.

How do we decide with an ancient verses, which parts are still culturally relevant, and which were related to a different time and place? Sometimes it seems arbitrary. (Did someone say 'concubines'? :)

Meanwhile the Corinthians passage lists the greedy in the same list as the homosexuals. And Jesus, who came to bring "good news to the poor" has an entire speech (Matt 25:31-46) about helping the hungry, thirsty, naked and sick. So, we in the Western world buy our ipods, plasma tvs and SUVs , while 1 billion people don't have clean drinking water. Where is the Christian campaign against that?

It's there - but it's very much on the back burner. In a recent CT poll, i see 20% of people say gay marriage is the most important issue facing the church. Another 50% say it is one of the most important.

While the biblical record homosexuality can be neatly summed up in a nice little blog post, the gospels are dripping in references to monetary greed. So why does homosexuality get ramped up the agenda? (at least by CT readers)

My guess is because it's easy. I'm not gay. Never have been. Never will be. So I could go full steam ahead on that issue without any fear of implications.

However, if I campaign for no-fault divorce, that requires me (if married) to put in the effort to make it work. If I campaign against the greed of the corporate sector, then I have to examine my own motives when money is involved. If I campaign against world poverty, then I have to think about starving countries when I'm buying my latest electronic gizmo.

I think it is easier for us (myself included) to tell other groups how to live, that step up to the mark ourselves. But changing my own behaviour is so much harder than simply pointing my finger at the sins of others. So in the end it's more convenient to pretend there's only one thing God detests - and it's being done by someone else.

David
(still trying to be transformed by a renewing of the mind, from what my culture wants to (hopefully) what God wants)

I believe people are born gay. What if your marriage was voted on today and decided to be illegal. I am a Christian woman and I HAVE opened the Bible to search with an open mind what God's will is towards homosexuality. I believe that's between God and each individual. Ezekiel 16:49 says: "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Just how many poor and needy people could have been helped with the money raised on the Prop 8 vote.
Leviticus has alot of rules that none of us follow anymore. Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality. There are many verses in the New Testiment saying not to judge though and alot of us "Christians" sure sound judmental, arrogant, and over-fed to me. Maybe we'd better quit worrying about the "speck in someone else's eye".

Holly says: In response to Dennis: Since you're not an American, I don't know the extent of your understanding of the American political process. Briefly, people within a state can petition to put a proposition on the ballot. If they fulfill the state's requirements, including getting enough signatures to back the petition, the proposition goes up for a vote by the people within that state.

People vote based on their beliefs. And everyone has beliefs: We are affected by our life's circumstances and experiences. Some people go to the polls and vote based on the belief that there is no God. Some people go with a "live and let live" belief: They think that as long as an action doesn't hurt another person, folks should be able to do whatever they want to do to themselves and to other consenting adults. As for me, I bring my Christian belief system to the polls. There's no way around this: How could people be forced to abandon every thought in their head when they vote?

People cannot disassociate their vote from their beliefs, whether spiritual, moral, political, experiential--we vote based on who we are. When you say, "You shouldn't vote based on your beliefs about the Bible," what you're really saying is, "You shouldn't vote because I think what you believe is wrong." What you propose is the equivalent of stating, "Religious people can believe what they want in the privacy of their own homes, but they shouldn't be allowed to bring it out in public." I suggest to you, Dennis, that this is a highly intolerant way of thinking. And I would even go so far as to suggest that if the current trend continues, religious people in America (Christians in particular) will lose their right to express faith publically. If you doubt this, ask this question to an American public school teacher who is a Christian, "Do you feel you have to repress your faith at school? How does this affect you?"

I think you misunderstand separation of church and state, as do many Americans. (For more info, do a search for "separation of church and state" on ThisNation.com. This is Google's top site for the search term "American government." It is NOT a religiously affiliated website.)

The following is from my personal website. I wrote it before Proposition 8 passed; it offers more information on why I supported the measure.
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Is this an issue of rights?

Since 1999, same-sex couples have been able to register for a domestic partnership under California law. Though rights were limited in scope back then, these have been expanded over the years so that today, a domestic partnership offers the same rights and responsibilities as a marriage within California.

From the California family code (current California law) regarding domestic partnerships:

297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.

(f) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights regarding nondiscrimination as those provided to spouses.

(These are two portions of the law that offer summary statements; click the link above to read the full text of the law.)

If Proposition 8 becomes law, it would not affect California law on domestic partnership—same-sex couples could continue registering and receiving the same rights in California as married opposite-sex couples.

Do “marriage” and “domestic partnerships” confer the same rights?

Within California, both confer the same rights. However, these rights are not “portable” because states create their own state’s laws, not federal ones. Thus, same-sex couples can’t register for a domestic partnership in California and retain those rights and responsibilities if they move to another state, unless that other state passes legislation to acknowledge these unions.

The same is true for same-sex marriages. Individual states decide whether they will recognize same-sex marriages. So as far as portability goes, it doesn’t matter what designation a same-sex couple receives (marriage or domestic partnership)—other states may or may not recognize the union. Same-sex marriages are currently recognized in Connecticut, Massachusetts, California and New York; New Hampshire and New Jersey recognize these as civil unions.

The U.S. federal government and its agencies do not recognize same-sex marriages, per the Defense of Marriage Act (enacted 1996).

If rights aren’t at stake, then what’s this issue about?

This is a primarily a dispute over the right to use the word “marriage.” From a publication of the Gay & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders (GLAD) website: “Civil unions are unfamiliar; people don’t understand them or know how to treat them … . Marriage is the ultimate expression of love and commitment; people understand and respect it.”

Why is any compromise needed? Why not just designate both as “married”?

For a variety of reasons, many Americans, including Californians, think the word “marriage” should be only defined as between a man and a woman.

In 2000, Proposition 22 was adopted in California, with 61 percent of voters supporting it. The following was added to the California Family Code (308.5):

Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

A series of legal challenges and counter-challenges has taken place over the past four years. In May 2008, the California Supreme Court struck down Proposition 22, effectively allowing same-sex couples to marry. In June 2008, Proposition 8, titled “Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry,” qualified for the November ballot, receiving close to twice the amount of petition signatures required for a measure to qualify.

Same-sex couples have been able—and are still able— to register for domestic partnerships. If Proposition 8 becomes law, it would not affect California law on domestic partnership—same-sex couples could continue registering and receiving the same rights in California as married opposite-sex couples.

Holly says: David, I appreciate that you are really taking the time to think--I think Christians often don't love God with our minds enough.

I've recently finished some research with focus on the question, "What purpose does the Old Testament law have for today's church?" There's not a ton out there on this topic, and it's something of great personal interest to me. I will be posting my research on my personal blog (H-n-T) in January.

Several posts here have posed the question, "Why do Christians put so much effort into issues about gay marriage and abortion, when there are greater concerns, such as poverty?"

I have a different perspective on this: Christians put a ton of effort into poverty. Our emphasis is on action rather than discussion. If you take a look at charities and aid organizations, you'll find that Christians are involved in every aspect of giving. Who runs the soup kitchens and shelters? Who delivers aid to remote parts of Africa? Who cares for orphans? Who visits the prisons and helps released prisoners get back on their feet? Sadly, the answer to these questions is sometimes: No one. But, more often than we recognize, it is churches, religious non-profits, and individual Christians who are offering comfort and help to the suffering.

But we don't hear about this work because, honestly, it's so common. A food pantry run by a church isn't considered newsworthy. So we don't read this in the papers. Instead, we read about the protests and rallies, and even more sadly, bombings of abortion clinics by misguided Christians.

So what's the solution? Should churches start tooting their own horn more often about their charitable work? Should Christians stop all political involvement? I think it's just a fact of life that we know more about controversy than about the good people do (e.g. How often do we hear about celebrities being charitable, compared to the amount of news on their broken relationships and rehab stints?)

Similarly, I'd interpret the CT stat about gay marriage that David offered differently: 80 percent of those polled think there's something more important for the church.

I'd be among that 80 percent, which might seem ironic since I just wrote about gay marriage! Since 2002, when I started writing for Christian publications, most of my writing has been about spiritual growth and how to (or, more often, how NOT to) share your faith.

I don't know what the most important "issue" facing the church is. In my opinion, the most important pursuit for the church should be: How do we develop our relationship with God and with others? And the second most important: How do we help others who are seeking a relationship with God? How do we respond to the obstacles that are keeping others from knowing God?

At the same time, I think it is appropriate for American Christians to take a stand about political issues as God leads them. For example, I have a couple Christian friends who are extremely active environmentalists. We just need to let the Bible shape our political opinions, rather than trying to back up our already formed opinions with Scripture.

I had no difficulty voting yes on 8. I knew as a Catholic that voting yes was the only answer.

Thanks for voting yes on 8. You made the best choice. The only choice. Let's just hope they don't try to overturn it.

i think this web site is just to attract the more womens to become a christian..................