What a beautiful and brave post, Andrea! It's so cool seeing what God can do in the lives of those who choose to look to him, trust him, and use the gifts he gave them. Bravo!

What situations have you encountered when submission has gone wrong, either in a marriage, friendship, organization, or church?
Great topic!

I've encountered submission gone wrong in both church and marriage. During an abusive marriage I was told to submit anyway from both a Christian Marriage counselor and Pastor at the time.

This not only further damages the victim of abuse but also condones the abusers actions.

How do we balance the two? In Prov 4:7 It says that Wisdom is supreme and though it may cost you all you have get understanding (NIV).

Coming to the true understanding of submission in the context of scripture is important. Really understanding the dynamics of abuse and how to help is also important.

How can a person submit to someone who isn't submitting to God? This seems to be ignored in some churches and has caused more and more victims to take matters in their own hands. Sadly, leading in more recent times to murder-which is not right.

Since starting my website at http://www.boldandworthy.com, I've gotten numerous emails and calls from women who feel that they have been deserted from their church and God.

Blessings to you and thank you for this post

Well written. Check out www.cbeinternational.org for more along with what God has revealed and is relvealing to you. Continue to listen for and to the Good Shepherd's voice.

Although fiercely independent of any higher denomination�s authority, my childhood churches expected their congregants� complete submission. They dictated what to wear (I endured countless kids� jeers for sporting awkward, baggy culottes in place of forbidden pants), where to go (I entered a movie theater for the first time when I was 21), what to listen to (I attended more than one church conference denouncing the evils of �Contemporary Christian Music� or any other melody with a rock beat), what Bible version to read (I felt a pang of guilt any time I opened a translation other than the King James), what to watch (I enjoyed a television in my home for the first time in college), what ministries to pursue (I could never aspire to pastor or deacon or any teacher of men in the congregation), what to eat (I�ve yet to overcome the stigma of drinking to take my first sip of alcohol), whom to marry (I cried through two conferences that demanded a pledge to forgo dating and instead submit to parent-controlled courtship), even what college to attend (I always thought I�d have to follow the rest of the church�s young people to one of three approved schools where dress codes were enforced, inter-gender interactions were severely restricted, off-campus excursions were carefully monitored, and classes were conservatively biased).

Well, I'm still complementarian...but I grew up in an independent fundamental church also and experienced all the things you listed (except I wore real dresses all the time instead of culottes :-). Lots of memories from your post!

I submitted to my husband for about 25 years - with his version of submission. Thankfully I found a great counselor who came along beside me and counseled me that I did not have to live under physical or verbal abuse among other things. I am still learning about what the Bible truly has to say in scripture about many things. I still can not read that verse without a gag in my throat. Thank you for people out there that realize what submission truly does not mean - in every sense.

may we all beware satan's counterfeits for biblical submission and all else.. the only way we will live in the freedom our Lord died for us to have (and true, biblical submission is freedom!) is to study the real thing, our Lord, and His word, and Jesus as He submitted to the Father, but NOT to all "religious" authority... praying for His wisdom as we navigate these issues for us all.. making sure we are fully submitted to our Lord first, last, always...

Submission gone wrong? I have a long-time Christian friend who is adamant about certain beliefs, including that divorce is wrong. Her relationship with her husband is one of the nastiest I've seen among my married friends. I've stopped visiting them in their home, but still cringe on the phone when she talks about the things she's said or done to her husband. When she finishes with "but neither of us will sign those papers" her tone sounds like it isn't so much about perseverance or obedience, but about making him miserable. I know divorce isn't God's best, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't more sin in their staying together, in the lack of mutual submission to one another rather than to a code, and in the lack of patience or kindness.

You appear to present the possiblity of only two choices: mindless submission or complete equality. Certainly a wife can also be a man's most trusted, loved, and respected advisor. Certainly a man can disagree with some advice from his wife without disrespecting her. There will always be times when there is no clear cut correct answer, and someone just has to make a decision. Under such circustances, if the spouses do not agree, then how is the decision made? In a marriage of equals, instead of convincing the other person that you are correct, the 'loser' usually just gives in because they are tired of arguing. Is this the correct way to make decisions? I don't think it would promote the emotional health of the marriage. If two heads are better than one, then why don't companies have two CEOs? Being the leader in a marriage is a tremendous responsibility that no one should take lightly or abuse. A good leader will always ask for advice from his wife on important issues. Everyone will make mistakes from time to time. This is not justification to move to a co-leader system. Just as many mistakes will be made in a co-leader system with the addition of hard feelings. I would love to have a wife that trusted and respected me enough to allow me to be the leader in our marriage. One of the reasons that I shy away from getting married again is that contemporary culture considers this so politically incorrect.

If this article is taken as a men/women's issues and not the fundamentalism vs. liberalism, then to me as a man, I almost felt a sense of relief because I already know that we men are not perfect creature. We can be forgetful of loving and treasuring the presence of women. We fall short of the glory of God.

There are times we may be a little too performance-baselined, emotionally insensitive because men's thinking are compartmentalized while women's mentality are relationship-based.

What a joy to men if women--you already know it--can help us men realize our true potential and our usefulness. When we are in charge, we need affirmations and supports from women as much as you need from us. We do want to reciprocate it. It's just that we usually don't know how to do it well.

I believe if you women "calmly" tell a reasonably responsible male-dominated leadership what went wrong, most of us men will listen and will learn to amend our mistakes and learn to be fair in the next round!

If the Bible said, "with much is given, much is required" and if it's God idea to give Adam the power and the authority to name the animals, to take care of the garden and to subdue the earth, we men have indeed been given much in the first place and we actually need all the help (especially from women) we can muster to finish the tasks.

In this age of accountability, it is not hard for men to find out we are more dependent on women's opinions/voices than ever to help keep our speeches and actions in check.

I believe that the inequality of men and women in the church aren't necessarily the culprit. It's simple that we men, left to ourselves, do not know how to be men, without the help of women in everything we endeavor.

Thanks to all the women out there to allow us men to be slowly maturing and tolerate us enough to be in leadership. Truly, we are in partnership with you hand and hand in the ministry more than you realize!

Blessings

I can identify with this since my childhood was full of such teachings. I hated church and backslided until I met a friend's mother who loved me back to christ.

Now my walk with God is so sweet and I never knew God could be so so sweet. Yes we all have our difficult days but God has been faithful!

Andrea God will bring you that man who will let you be all that you were created to be without trying to suffocate you.

Many blessings

Your post brought back many childhood memories. For a minute I thought maybe we went to the same church. Cullottes -- no music with a beat -- only hymns and other "approved music" -- and the list goes on. I went to an "approved" college, which I left after 1 1/2 years for a "liberal" Christian college. What freedom! Freedom to read the Scripture (the NIV, no less) and see what God had to say to me...not what the pastor said that God had to say to me.

I did not grow up in as strict a fundamental church as you described. But throughout history several religions have made women feel lile second-class citizens.

While God's Word tells us to submit to our husbands, it also instructs our husbands to love and honor us, as Christ does the Church. In other words, if we are seen as merely submissive endentured servants, half of the Lord's instruction is being left out.

As a girl, my favorite Bible hero was Esther. God used Esther, through her obedience as a child of God AND the love and respect she earned from her husband, the king, to save the nation of Israel.

What an awesome example of how submission, mutual honor and love of God is supposed to inter-twine.

Hi,
Great topic. I personally just finished reading a eye opening book with my husband Authored by John Bevere called Under Cover. It talks all about why we are to be submitted to the leadership in our lives, whether in marriage, at the office, in church, or school. Very good Christian book, and very Biblically sound. I suggest you read it. Pray about it!

God Bless!

Thankfully His
Cathleen

As with many others who have commented, I, too, grew up in a legalistic church environment that made me run far away when I became an adult. While I did come back to God when I was 30, my husband did not do so until 8 years later. During those years I struggled with the idea of submission but understood that I could not always submit to someone who was not following the Lord's guidance. When it came to spiritual matters, I had no choice but to lead my children. How could my husband show them things he was not familiar with?
I am thrilled to report that I have a whole new understanding of submission now. My husband is living proof that an encounter with the Holy Spirit can COMPLETELY transform a life. I am still amazed sometimes at the person my husband has become. And you know what, it is a RELIEF to be able to sit back and let him lead for a change! Do my non-Christian friends completely understand how this can be when I am very much a "type A" modern woman? No, but that doesn't matter to me any more. I praise God for empowering me to be a submissive wife!

I think this is more about rules instead of a relationship and there is a differnce even in churches. The writer does mention the husband/wife or male/female roles but she mentions many other examples of what she considers a form of dictatorship. In a healthy relationship, there is no problem with submission but it is more like respect. Respect is something that is earned and not demanded. If a man is fulfilling his duty as a husband (Love your wives as Christ loved the Church, Ephesians 5:25) than a wife will not have a problem respecting him in most cases she will want to. If we believe this verse should be relevant than we can not ignore verse 22 in this same chapter; however, we do not see Christ demanding more of the church than He was willing to give - His Life!
My advice as a pastor's wife is always to tell people to base their doctrine on the Word of God not man.

Andrea, thank you for your beautiful and well written post. God bless you. Your sweet spirit comes right through!
Your post brought back memories. In the church I was in what the pastor or the elders said was "what goes" unless the pastor disagreed with the elders then what he said would dominate. This submission was expected as if God had spoken. I was in a bad marriage for 16 years married to a controlling selfish man. I could only have a ministry if he "released me into it" even though he was not walking with the Lord as he should. It ultimately came out that he had been unfaithful numerous times in our marriage since the first year. He deserted me and our two children. In the church when I planned a trip to the mountains with some female friends I was told I had planned a woman's retreat without church permission and I was chastised. After the divorce I wanted to leave this church. I was threatened by the pastor and told that if I left his church my ministry would never be what it could be if I stayed. He said he would have me blackballed from every church in our town as unsubmissive and rebellious. I left anyway and went home where I received healing, love and sound counsel for the abuse I had been under in both my church and my marriage. I lost long time friends and best friends because they believed they had to submit to this kind of leadership in order to honor God. Congratulations on your bravery and your boldness Andrea in seeking to know Christ as he really is and he is wonderful!

Keith, if someone must "rule" then why not the one with the best track record? Personally, I don't see why either has to be in charge, in a healthy relationship. Both have much to offer. The two are supposed to compliment each other.

The submissive portions of the bible reside only in the old Testiment if I am not mistaken. As a christian, I have been taught to follow the works of Jesus above all else. Jesus preached equality, to love unconditionally and respect each other with love, emotional support, and uplifting gestures all the while praising Him for the gift of our spouse (or significant other) all the time. As christians we are to be an uplifting people just as Jesus was. Where is there a scripture about Jesus repremanding a woman for not obeying her husband. In the scriptures it says that men brought a woman to Jesus because she had committed adultery but Jesus, with love in His eyes dismissed this sin and gave forgiveness all the while repremanding the men for having staged the act just to try to get Jesus to prove himself as the son of God. Jesus is the epitome of what love is and what love should be. There is no room in the new testiment for submission and inequality.
Sorry I don't know all the scriptures of what I am speaking about but I'm sure someone out there does.

Our church's counseling pastor teaches that submission means living for the good of the other person. For example, my husband has an avoidance issue. He won't look at the checkbook because he doesn't want to know how much, or how little, money is there. Not knowing means he often makes foolish decisions because he hasn't planned well. After years of "submitting" to his foolishness, I was told that I was enabling my husband. Now, I balance our checkbook weekly and inform him how much is left until payday; I insist that we talk regularly about our financial goals; I ask him if he'd rather fix the leaking faucet himself, or if he wants me to call the plumber. I pray regularly that God will give my husband wisdom in the area of money and finances. I praise him when he makes wise and unselfish decisions -- like paying off the car loan early instead of buying a boat.

Instead of biting my tongue, supressing anger and being resentful, I am now living for my husband's good, for God's glory!

To me, you sound like you are now a part of a more liberal Christian Church. I grew up in a evangelical church where today is getting more and more liberal..like sipping wine is now becomeing ok, as is wearing pants to church for ladies, as is a list of other stuff. When I grew up, it was much stricter, kinda like how you grew up although not to that extent. But I loved when my church was more conservative. Back when I grew up it was only the catholic religion that sipped wine but now that and so much more is excepted in my church.
Whats funny is how I desire a more stricter, fundamental church and you desire a more liberal one.
Make now wonder theres so many different types of churches, hey haha! :)
They have to accomodate all of us :)
I worry though about churches being more and more liberal because I really believe that one thing leads to another. THats how the devil works, he starts be letting us bend Gods rules (commandments) by sippin a little wine, divorcing, etc etc and the next you thing you know, were accepting gay marriages being performed in our Churches.
I really think thats what alot of fundamentally minded people are worried about. I think they (including me who is NOT fundamental or baptist) sincerely are concerned about.
I guess we just all have to understnad where others are coming from. For you, you might not like this type of Church, but for me, I would LOVE to attend a Church where the pastor preaches against stuff like that and is not afraid of stepping on toes. I guess its because I WANT my toes stepped on. I want to feel convicted and I want to live as godly and pure as possible. I want to be a woman after Gods own heart. On fire for God. I want to be a Christian lady that turns away from all the reality tv shows and sipping wine and all that.
Thats what I want. Might now be what someone else wants. But I guess we have to accept one another :)

Yes indeed Andrea you are so right, and like my Grand-Mom use to say that the Lord looks out for fools and babies. I am 53 years old, and what I have seen my Mom went through with my Step-Dad not in this life time will I ever allow any man to misuse me, and then have the nerve to quote the Bible to me, when he is not doing what the Lord ask of him. You have a blessed life, and you are indeed covered by the blood of the lamb.

To Keith: complete equality is God's answer. In Him there is no black or white, male or female. He is greater than that. Think beyond your gender. God does.

Thank you Andrea for your words spoken from your heart. I spend much of my ministry time walking through the slow healing process with women when they have grown-up in or are in a legalistic environment. The fear of leaving such an environment has deep roots. The scars go deep, but just as you have found once we step out of a legalistic environment we begin to find freedom in Christ.

I too came from the same type of legalistic background. But the Lord took the time to teach and mentor me so that as I walked with Him I became free. Then I began to learn that just as we are to be a living sacrifice, our lives are also to be a living fragrance spreading the essence of Him. www.livingfragrance.com

i am glad to hear such letters.In my opinion it is the God's way of puting people right with himself. But his does not mean that a lady's master or husband if they do some wrong then she has to submit to her husband's will.All have received the same intelligence to do and act so we find lady administrators and even President.I praise god almighty for such changing thoughts. Subarna

The most important here: OUR FATHER'S WILL...we must pray if we really want to know what does HE knows it is best for us...life is not ust flowers and sun...we have to learn to obey, to put our "ego' where it has to be...MAY HIS PURE LOVE fill our hearts that need IT!

Speaking as a male Christian I applaud your "divorce" from this awful authoritarianism. The Lord has great plans for you that do not include being bound up in this sectarianism. How can we "go out into all the World and make disciples of all mankind" if we show that we are inhuman? Jesus hated these "whitewashed sepulchres" and the World must be able to relate to us in showing them a joyful and happy alternative to being enslaved. In the Word we read that man and woman were made "as one," and if man is the head, I believe that woman's role is as the neck! The head cannot function without support from the neck and visa versa.
Every translation of the Bible was written for a particular time and people, so read whichever the Lord guides you into. Though quite how we can relate to all this olde English "thee, thou, art, etc" is beyond me. Christianity is simple and straightforward, and Jesus makes it easy for us to get to know Him. The Message is good and I quite enjoy its fresh approach (although the Psalms etc are not to my "taste" in this version.)
A good Bible commentary is needed to read together with the Bible to get the real meaning from the Greek or Hebrew. Remember that often the original text is almost impossible to translate directly, and that there is not just one original text but very many, which can vary in content.
I wish you God speed in your career and in your walk with the Lord - women all over the World need your encouragement to become liberated into the ministry that God designed for them. Go girl!!!

Thank you, Andrea, for initiating this discussion. I found everyone's input interesting. However, I have yet to hear a sermon or commentary on this topic that seems to present the true meaning of submission in the greater context of God's kingdom and the representation that marriage provides as an earthly witness. And I keep searching, because this has long been a problematic issue for me... for all the reasons you name and more. The points raised in the posts -- by both men and women -- are valid. Nevertheless, the explanations and interpretations from the pulpit and pew all fall short (for me). I don't know what's missing, but I hope that one day I find it, because it's a frustrating gap in my spiritual growth -- possibly because there's more focus on domination than leadership, albeit with good intentions. I appreciate the analogy of the workplace, because I often ask myself why that structure is perfectly acceptable to me while I struggle with the marriage issue. I suppose because there are good managers and bad managers, but we can quit when bad managers make the environment intolerable. There's a beautiful verse in Malachi (2:11) where the prophet speaks of God's anger toward sin, including their sins against the marriage institution. But here's what's interesting about the verse. The prophet reveals God's "feelings" about marriage. It says, "The Lord's holy institution which He loves..." That stops me dead in my tracks. What an amazing statement. If that's how God feels, I feel I need to better understand the weight of this matter. And then in Hosea, a book all about the marriage institution between Israel and God, the prophet says, "And it shall be in that day that you will call Me My Husband, and no longer call Me My Master." Clearly there's something more to be learned about this male/female relationship than we've all understood. The leadership is God ordained. But living it out becomes challenging with imperfect human beings, especially when we experience leadership from a human perspective (which is often selfish and domineering) vs. a Divine perspective (which conversely is selfless, loving and generous). God help us all -- the women who long to serve God in all things without relinquishing their God-given freedom and the men who must responsibly fulfill this position. I pray that God reveal to the church the true revelation of marriage and this relationship. Thank you for bringing it up.

Andrea, you're STILL questioning and hurting and rightly so. I HEARD God call MY NAME and was saved at age 12 and tried, without much leadership, to listen to His leading daily. I could feel the quenching of the Holy Spirit all throughout my days in school. I was made fun of, not because of my dress, although I was pretty conservative, but because I didn't run around with wild crowds, smoke or drink.

After high school, I hurried into a marriage with a devout Pentecostal young man who, after 1 year of marriage annouced he had been with men! We divorced and I went....wild, although still completely able to hear God's voice, which I foolishly ignored!

A close call with breast cancer brought me to my knees. I called on God and, of course, He was ever faithful to me and I was embarrassed. It took years for me to be in His presence without sobbing and wanting to lay flat out on my face. With the help of a VERY loving church family, I am now maturing in Christ.

Right after I returned to God's arms, He brought me a Christian man. We had a wedding that included his three young children and us, no one else. My husband has had some major maturing issues, but then so have I. I just recently read "What A Husband Needs From His Wife" by Melanie Chitwood. It has lead me on a new path with my marriage. Her guidance speaks of submission, but helps one to see it with it's basis in LOVE, not just obediance. I love my husband so very much and have prayed to be what he needs me to be. That's when I was led to this book. There are scripture references throughout it's pages and Melanie leans heavily on the Word Of God. She also points out her own behavior that leads to problems in her marriage and shows how she's worked to make a difference, of course through Christ's help.

My point is, when submission is steeped in LOVE, a desire to be like Christ and realize HIS GREAT SACRIFICE, our sacrifices as a wife pale so greatly. I won't tell you we haven't butt heads or that I bow down, because I don't. In a spirit of love, that I want things to be right between us, that I want the children to experience our love and see us as examples I help my husband see what he cannont at times. It has NEVER not worked. Submission can be quite powerful. Look at the King of Kings. He submitted and became LORD OF ALL....

And all because of LOVE.

I have been married for seven years and I embraced the idea of submitting to my husband. However, my husband, in idea, did not want me to submit to him but to be his partner, which I wholeheartedly accepted. But asserting my equal right became a struggle for both of us and I saw my marriage declining and both of us were not happy. Divorce was not far from reality. Then the realization came to me that we cannot be equal in everything. We both each has a role to fulfill and the roles cannot be equal. We went to a male Christian counselor, on my prodding, in the guise of getting tips on how to parent a child with autism. The counselor recommended the book "Love and Respect" and I read the part for the women which is essentially based on the biblical principle, how to respect my husband. The result in our marriage is amazing. Instead of being his equal, I started supporting and respecting him as head of our family who wants to provide for and protect us. He in turn started being more caring and loving to me and our son. Our marriage has undergone an absolute transformation when I started "submitting" to him in love. My submission to my husband comes second to my submission to God who wants me to "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your path straight". I no longer exact my "equal right" because I receive them and more by being respectful of the man who heads my family. I trusted God, humbled myself and He gave me back my family.
To God be the glory!!!

I so enjoyed reading the article it reminded me of my mother and our old church many years ago.

When I wanted to wear slacks to the Church outting, she reminded me scripturally tht women should not wear things that were pertaining to a man. I tried to explain to her that the slacks, I wanted to wear were made for women and were purchased from the women's department.

Of course she would not hear nothing I said. I even tried to describe the clothing
worn by Jesus and his deciples, pointing out that they were not the normal garb
to no avail.

At this point after many years of experience and study including Seminary
my undersanding has unveiled. I understand limited understanding of many
including some Pastors who for whatever reason just don't seem to have understaning of life and or scripture.

So,I am just moving on by the grace of God

God Bless You

God Bless

Andrea: Thank you for your thoughtful commentary. Certainly descriptions of situations where the wife suffers quietly under the domineering, abusive husband who claims to be following Christ abound in the church. All of the people in our churches who are living in such a home need to hear your message. However, along with some of the previous commenters, I believe that a church built on a true love for Jesus and a relationship with the person of Jesus would never condone, endorse or encourage spousal abuse. Further, submission to Biblical authority - weather in the home or in the church - is a joy. I long to hear the stories of women who are submissive to loving leadership in the church and in the home and reaping the multitudinous benefits they can realize in such a God-ordained situation. I am one of these women and I would not trade my church, my husband, or my complementarian (personally studied out) views for anything.
The church should step up and talk to the men who are continuing in this sinful behavior. When it does not, we, who ARE the church should come along side the women in these abusive situations and, after they have tried every way of resolving problems and submitting to their husbands to no avail, to help them leave when and if they are ready. On the other side, however, many a person has suffered while serving God. They have loved Him through slavery and other types of bondage. If our friends feel that God is calling them to stay in a non-physically abusive relationship, we should love them and pray with them. God never promised us a problem free life, he just promised us Himself and the glorious communion with Him. When our culture says our life should be cushy and our relationships perfectly equal, it is a ruse. We know that one day we will see our Saviour and understand. For now, we must rely upon our imperfect understandings and pray for greater wisdom to live rightly in a broken world.

For my first seven years as a Christian, I promoted wifely submission to anyone who would listen. I loved submitting. According to I Peter 3:1, my submission might even save my husband. Certainly this scripture is evidence that God promotes submission even to our husbands that aren't obeying God. This worked wonderfully until the day that God clearly spoke to me and told me to do something my husband forbid me to do (quit my job). I couldn't understand how it could be okay for me to disobey my husband. It was not unreasonable for my husband to want me to keep my job. I loved my job. But I had to obey God.

I gave my two weeks notice even though I didn't understand. My husband threatened to divorce me. I had to obey God first. Afterwards, God revealed to me that I was using submission to my husband to determine how to live. I thought I could know God's will through my husband. God was ready to change my relationship with Him. He wanted me to seek Him for answers and not my husband. It's been difficult because there have been more disobediences. I look like a hypocrite to my husband and family. My actions seemed to ruin my witness. But I am to obey God first and my husband second.

Can I think for myself? My ways are not God's ways. God knows me better than I do. He knows the future. He knows what's best for me. I can seek God by myself, but I can do nothing without Him.

Good for you Andrea,

Skirts do not the Christian woman make.

Legalism is not the gateway to heaven.

Show me a man who gives his life up for his wife and I will show you a man worth submitting to.

I heard a teaching once that made sense to me on 1 Corinthians 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

The teaching goes like this--Paul was saying follow me as I follow Christ. Therefore follow a husband, pastor as they follow Christ and when they do not follow Christ do not follow them but follow Christ.

Also Romans 8:14 says--"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons (daughters) of God.

Also Genesis 21:12 God speaks to Abraham "...Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice...."

Also in 1 Samuel 25 we read about Abigail going against the direction of her husband Nabal. 1 Samuel 25:32 "Then David said to Abigail: �Blessed is the LORD God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me!"

Jesus said in John 10 that "My sheep hear My voice and they hear the voice of no other." But most Christians do not hear the voice of Jesus, His Holy Spirit, because they really do not believe that one can hear his voice. As a result, the Church does not live in the revelation, the apocalypsis, the uncovering of God and His Word, our Covenant last will and Testament. So, then, most must live in the form and the process, the religion, the external, the rules and regulations. The whole of the Law, the Ten Commandments and every other rule that man lives by to become righteous is summed up in Hebrews 10:1 The Law is but a shadow of the true realities yet to come." To live in rules, although necessary when interfacing with other people, does not bring about salvation or righteousness or sanctification. Through them we will only live in the shadow that points to the true reality and as a result we will abide in the curse and never come into the light. Jesus said that the Sabbath with all of its intricacies was made for man not man for the Sabbath.There's much more. But let he who has ears to hear, listen to the Spirit of the kind and gentle Lord.

Not being a churchgoer, I hadn't heard much about this subject until I started attending the last few years. It puzzles me. I don't know that it comes into play in my marriage, but I do know that I respect my husband's thoughts about things.

My husband says *I'm* the boss, but he's partly kidding. The fact is, I respect him because he's a good and loving man, and he does all in his power to make me happy. I care about what he thinks and I ask his opinion on most things. We work hard to love each other and be considerate, and it naturally works really well. We are very happy.

It seems like a woman needs the right man to make it work. Maybe if single women felt comfortable being waited on and adored (that means not getting more excited by a guy who ignores you than a man who adores you), then they'd marry the right kind of man, and the passage about submission would play out more naturally in their marriage? The other half of the passage is that the man needs to love his wife as Christ loved the church...

I don't understand the passage completely, but submitting to a man who doesn't have God's and your interests at heart doesn't make sense. It is sad that this gets turned around in a lot of churches.

Andrea,

Thank you for sharing about submission. I thought I was the only one with this problem. My pastor demands submission at all cost. I switched from denomination to another just because I dislike their teaching on submission. One denomination dictated what they want one to wear to church and the church I 'm currently attending sunday worship demands that everything including one's travels to defferent places for work and courses should be detailed to the church pastor. I think this is wiered and I feel that there is no freedom and my rights are being violated. The pastor feels that it is his right to know. I'm not a kid. This is dictatorship.

When I was first married I had contempt for the idea of submitting to my husband. I was sure that the best way was usually my way, and didn't trust him to manage much of anything without me overseeing it. At first, this caused us to have plenty of fights since he wanted to be heard and given a chance to take responsibility in our family. But I made it clear that I doubted him and I fought for control to the point that he became withdrawn and distant. This had also been the family role model I grew up with - a father who was passive and distant and a mother who was the head of the household. We both got to the point in our marriage where divorce crossed our minds.

Thankfully, we started to attend a wonderful church that offered a class called "A biblical portrait of marriage" by Walk thru the Bible Ministries. It does teach that the man is the head of the home. But the balanced picture of this role is that a man is to lead in a loving way, not being domineering - but considering his wife's needs and hearing her opinions. And yes, it does teach submission as one of women's roles. However, submitting never means not having a mind, an opinion, or a voice. It does not mean I am weak or less than my husband. It does mean recognizing that God designed us to have different but equally valuable roles in a marriage. We were NEVER taught that submission meant women had to endure any type of abuse.

We have now been working on fullfiling these roles for about 3 years. We both agree we are the happiest, most at peace we have ever been in our marriage. I no longer struggle for the power in our relationship but I feel loved, valued, and respected. My husband is no longer passive and withdrawn, but has become a strong, capable leader, and also a Chrisitian. I truely pray that people would give this a chance.

I was married 25 years to a man who I was submissive with. He cheated on me many times. I always forgave and (tried to) forget. But he would never stick with marriage counseling long enough to fix HIS problems that caused him to be a serial adulterer. And yes, I did work on the marriage from my end and did try to compete with the other women, but he didn't care - no matter what I did he was going to cheat.

He eventually dumped me for another woman - he divorced me.

Now some of the Christian women I know apparently have assumed that the divorce must have been my fault. Some have even made remarks about submissiveness - insinuating that I lacked it in the marriage. Ironically most of those same women are very disrespectful with their husbands in ways I NEVER would have treated my husband. Also, most of those women never met my husband, never got the chance to observe my husband and I interacting, the people who did know us as a couple think I put up with way too much for way too long.

I think it helps the women who think I wasn't submissive enough feel safe from divorce themselves; if they assure themselves that my efforts and submissiveness MUST have been inadequate, then they (falsely) assume that they are better wives to their husbands than I was to mine so of course their husbands will never leave them.

Ironically, it was my submissiveness that enabled my ex-husband to become so emotionally, verbally, and even eventually physically abusive with me. The physical abuse was just before he moved out - he was secretly committing adultery and wanted me to kick him out so he could pretend we split up first and THEN he met the other woman...

I also know now that I idolized my ex-husband. I had wrongfully allowed him to become more important to me than God. I still love my ex-husband, and have forgiven him, BUT he is no longer part of my life. I pray for him but I leave it in God's hands to help him.

I no longer look to him for happiness, security, hope, love. I have turned my focus to God instead and increasingly feel happiness and joy, security and strength, hope and assurance, and I know without a doubt that I will never again feel unloved.

I also know that I deserved better, that it was not God's will that I put up with being treated that way.

BTW, even now, 6 years after he left me for the other woman and three years since he divorced me, he sometimes still tries to boss me around! Of course he doesn't get very far with that anymore.

This is why there is this difficulty in understanding equality in marriage because the secular/business world is used as example instead of scripture which says "two that become one" - who lead by the Holy Spirit can lead together as equals. That is the difference. Stop trying to bring the world's thinking into what God planned right from the very beginning when he gave dominion of the earth to both the man and the woman.

Andrea,

I have been experiencing lately the same issues you stated on your blog. I believe what you say. I thank God you were brave enough to share it with me and other women who have accessed your post.

I have to partly agree & partly disagree with your comments on submission. I do agree about the church dictating certain things in your life (such as dress, the version of bible you can read, the school you must attend). I do not believe there is any biblical basis for this. However, your comment on becoming a pastor and teaching a man is very biblical. 1 Timothy 2:12 clearly states a woman is not permited to teach or have authority over a man. Submission is not just being quiet and letting someone walk all over you. You are to submitt out of love and reverence for our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the utlimate example of submission. If you are going to turn to your Master for wisdom, you need to do it in all aspects not just the ones that fit in to your opinions. I agree with one previous posted comment that we tend to try to fit God into the worlds views instead of finding our place in God's plan.

I'm so discouraged by the comments that I'm reading. What I see are women who are hurt and afraid. God has not called any of us to an easy life. He doesn't promise roses and romance and perfect husbands. THAT is Satan's lie.

If any of you are looking for a man who is worthy of submitting to, then you will only find one - Jesus. No human man is worthy of being submitted to. HOWEVER God still has called us to submit. Our submission isn't based on our husband's behavior. We must do what God has called us to do, whether or not our husband is obeying God.

In the same way, they must love us even if we nag and don't give them an ounce of respect.

Please beware of www.cbeinternational.org. Do your research and learn that the founder has tried to replace the word God with "goddess".

Most of you aren't married to abusers or adulterers. You are married to regular, imperfect men. And you are so worried about taking care of yourself that you are refust to obey the word of God.

Please be mindful of

Your article makes me so sad. First it seems that you entitled and argument to be about submission when it really seems to be about legalism. Legalism is very definitely wrong and sinful. However, I lived a large part of my married life with your attitude and very nearly suffered a failed marriage for it. But when I began to truly have a heart of submission, toward the Lord first and then my husband, things began to change immensly. I have never felt such peace as I have felt since I allowed my husband the place in our home that the Lord intended him to have. He has never been a dictator and does care about my opinion, but there are times when we don't agree and I have to follow what he say. We must remember that our Lord blesses obedience far above sacrifice. I believe that even when I think my husband is wrong (and understand he has never asked me or my children to sin or go against our convictions) the Lord will bless me and protect me because of my obedience. Understand we do not go to a legalistic church. I also find it very disturbing that you would write an article about something you do not truly know about. You will never understand the real meaning of a wife's submission to her husband until you are a wife. I have not lost myself and am not looked down upon. We are in most respects very equal, but the Lord did create him to be the head of our home and I must respect that. We are after all human and not perfect. He will not always make the right decisions and neither will I, but if we are trusting the Lord, He will be glorified through whatever may come our way. I pray that you will open your heart and allow the Lord room to change what seems to be a very clouded view of such a precious thing.

Andrea,

God is amazing! I have been stuggling with this issue for awhile now and wondered if I was one of the only ones. He is gracious and loving to me to show me I am not alone and that it is OK to wrestle with the issue and to continue to take it back to Him and search out the scriptures for answers. To talk to my leaders and co-workers about this issue. I work with church leaders on a daily basis. I struggle with this on a daily basis with them as I see their sinful nature. Why do I do this?

I was in a very abusive marriage where I was told by my father who was a minister that I had to stay and submit to my husband. I eventually found in the scriptures where it was ok to leave for my safety as well as my children. Of course old habits are hard to break and I repeated the pattern. But God was gracious to me and my 2nd husbands life has been transformed into a new creature of God. Submitting to him is amazing and easy. I have faith that this can work in any relationship if we truly work at it and if all sides truly desire it and give it to God. Keep on searching the scriptures and allow God to speak to you as you search them out.
For with God all things are possible.

Hi,

Great subject, thanks Andrea.

First about submission...as someone already pointed out, it's one thing to submit to a man who is laying down his life for his wife as Jesus did for the Church. If submission is right, it's also reciprocal. I submit to Jesus who laid down His life for me, but my husband and I work together, submitting to each other, and attempting to lay our lives down for each other as well.

Second...pants! I publish a Christian woman's magazine, for women who want to push the boundaries. REcently a guy wrote to us complaining about the bi-furcated garments the women pictured in the magazine were wearing. (Bi-furcated is 'split', literally, trousers). He said we are not designed to wear them because of our 'uterine bulge'!!! oh dear!

It takes time, but in the end, all we can do it live right according to what we know God is saying to us, and leave the rest to Him to work out with ignorant and myopic Christians.

Bev

I did not like this. Andrea, you are entitled to your oppinion, but as a young 26 year old pastor's wife, we are at a more tradictional church, or "legalistic" as you put it. I do still read the KJV, and prefer it. This has made me angry! There are people out there dieing and going to hell, and Christians are to busy putting down other Christians for the way we chose to worship. No wonder this world is going down so fast, and people don't want to be a part of this religion. I love prasie and worship music, but if someone else doesn't I'm not going to make them feel bad because they don't. This was wrong, and I am very upset because of it.

Andrea,
Submitting to one's husband is in no way equal to being a doormat. I revel in my role as helpmeet to my husband--complementing his leadership of our family, supporting him as he works so hard to provide for us. My husband does not--and would not--tell me what to wear, where to go (or not to go), etc. That is NOT what submission is about. Submission is about allowing a man to fulfill the role God has equipped him for, and being given the luxury of filling the one for which you were made. I'm so, so sorry for anyone who has seen anything less than this beautiful sacrifice on behalf of a MAN (not on behalf of the woman). Leadership is COSTLY. Being a submissive woman is a form of freedom that is anything but.

Great post, Andrea. Legalism is not God's plan. Relationship is. Rules will not bring you closer to the Shepherd. Listening will. Althouth I realize your article wasn't really about marriage, per se, I just want you to know there ARE good, Christian men out there who love and value their wives as equals. My husband is one of them. As the Women's Pastor at my church used to tell me: the bible instructs women to submit to their HUSBANDS, not to all men in general. So, be careful who you marry. Only marry someone who respects you as an equal, then you will be happy to submit because he will never "pull rank" on you, but honor and love you as Christ loves the church and gave himself up for her. God bless. :-)

Andrea,

I believe I learned something important about submission...something that I think you need to learn, as well.

Like you, I was raised all my life in a very conservative church (though I did not chaff so badly as you did). I owned a TV for the first time when I was 34. Saw my first movie at 34. That was the year I got married--I like to joke that my wife corrupted me!

Over the years of marriage, I have learned an important lesson: Discern between PREFERENCE and PRINCPLE.

If I want to dine on seafood and my wife prefers the steakhouse, we can fuss, feud, and fight, neither of us submitting...or one of us can be the adult and realize that it's a matter of preference and not princple.

The problem with your version of marriage, I'm afraid, is that it really is a situation that is designed to let YOU be in charge. You call being equal. But what happens when you want X and your husband wants Y? What happens at an impasse? If you aren't careful--or if you are too mindful of being "equal" and "uncontrolled"--you will refuse to give in, and the first crack in your relationship will be formed. Repeat that a few dozen times, and unless you married the meekest man on earth, he will resent what he consideres "controlling" behavior--you will have become what you always detested!

So I seek to live by the Preference vs. Principle notion. If my wife asked me to do something wrong, my answer is "no," and it is non-negotiable. But if it's just a matter of preference, well, I enjoy making her happy--and when she's happy, so am I.

I understand where you're coming from. Be careful that you don't overreact to your experience by putting someone else in the position you used to be in.

God bless you!

Great article and great posts. It's wonderful to see Christian women encouraging eachother! God bless you all

Denise, the passage I believe you're referring to is about salvation (Ga 3:28).

As I read this article, it seems like it and the overall issue is about roles. God is concerned about gender and roles because He is Father and Son (and Spirit). Implication? It's NOT about complete equality, it's about relationship and how relationships function.

The discussion (and sometimes heated debate in the Church) centers on how this relationship is expressed. Scripture has lots to say about how we submit to civil authority, parents and spouse.

Your comment comes across as snide ("Think beyond your gender. God does.") and belittling to someone who has a different POV than you.

Andrea, I am happy that you were able to turn away from a legalistic way of being a Christian to righteousness by faith. However, I am always leary of those who say that any and all rules when it comes to Christianity and the Bible are legalistic. Not so. After all, it was Christ who said "if you love me, keep my commandments." The wonderful grace of God is that we are saved by grace but if there are no laws to be broken then we can all go out and sleep around, get drunk, curse, lie, steal, murder and commit adultery in the name of going against 'legalism'. God's forgiveness is there for everyone when we make a mistake and fall but I'm not going to fool myself into thinking God is willing to accept any old sacrifice we offer him (remember Cain and Abel). The whole point of the Great Controversy is the devil wouldn't follow the rules and that is why our world is as sinful as it is today. Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12. And behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12.

Keith: First of all, analogizing a marriage and a company doesn't really work. A company may not have two CEOs, but it has an entire board of directors that prevents the CEO from doing anything that he/she wants. The US might not have two Presidents, but there are several checks in place to guarantee that the President is not the only person making decisions, and we obviously run into problems when the President has too much power. I'm sure you would love to have a wife who trusted and respected you enough to allow you to lead the marriage. However, I'm sure your wife would not be entirely opposed to having a husband who would appreciate the same in return.

Denise: While I agree with you to an extent, Galatians 3:28 is quite possibly the most mistranslated verse in the Bible. Note that I did not say misinterpreted, but mistranslated. The verse would be more accurately translated "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female" (emphasis added), which gives it a bit of different meaning.

Thanks for sharing Andrea and all others.
My very first thought is this because with sharing comes thoughts and responses from hearts and minds ( both needed) and words of wisdom from lives with experiences (good and bad) that can change and influence. Communication is a key and important word for Marriage and for the Church. It's a continual process.
We all need good examples in marriage and in church leadership ( sometimes even mentors) but not in a dominate and controlling way. Our human nature kicks in strong to this, we are wired to respond in such a way. Rules and guidelines have usefulness and can benefit all when we understand the purpose.
I have yet to find where in the bible there is a reference to not attaining soul salvation because of what we wear. We need to separate some of the man-made rules from the enforcers. Our God has a standard that we all must live up to, and we are blessed if we have leaders who see beyond the petty things to the heart and soul. ( likewise to a married couple who communicate and share from the heart what they feel and don't let everything or one dictate their own best interest.)
I better leave... my cup runneth over!
Thank you all for all heart talk.

Kim

Thank you, Andrea, for a great article.
I was raised in church and asked Jesus into my heart at 15 but never took the initiative to grow in my faith. Therefore, I married while I was out of God's will.
After my mother died when I was 30, I chose to put God first in my life. I've had to be the one to take the role of leading/discipling my children because this is foreign to him. At times I feel sure he is under conviction because he becomes very negative toward anything that is of God.
One verse that encourages me is 1 Cor 15:58 which (in The Living Bible translation!) says, "...be strong and steady, ...for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever wasted"
That is a great comfort when I am discouraged.
I understand what was said about 'how could I be submissive to someone who isn't submissive to God,' but I have already made the choice to marry him and I know God wants me to honor that commitment.
I have 'defied' my husband only at times when God has given me perfect peace about such a decision.
I've read the 'Love and Respect' material and we even attended a conference. One biblical example they used in a case like this was of Saphira blindly following her husband in cheating the church. She paid the price for ignoring God and following her husband.
I know that God can make the sweetest lemonade from sour lemons.
The hardest part for me is in encouraging my daughters to put their faith first. I want them to marry godly men who will be submissive to God and put Him first.

How on earth can I submit to my husband? He became a christian 10 years ago, but never got baptised, he is totally backslidden and refuses to even go to church with me. When I suggest other churches - he finds faults with them. I am worried aboutthe effect he will have on the children.

I earn twice as much as he does (why he couldn't get a better paid job I don't know), I do 90 % of the housework, all the cooking and pay all the bills!! He hasn't got a clue about finances and spends most of his time playing computer games, or looking at You Tube.

He has also been physically and verbally abusive. He is nice one minute and nasty the next. This has had the effect on me, of confusing me. Will the real M..... please stand up!!

He critisies other christians, he complains about my family. He is a miserable, moody man. As you can tell I dislike him. I have forgiven him time after time, for his behaviour towards me. But still it goes on. I won't divorce him as I don't want to upset the kids any further. But when they aqre grown up. I will go and live by myself. I won't divorce him - but if things haven't changed I won't be living with him.

It's all my fault. I met him when I was younger, he wasn't a christian. I'd been brought up in a strict church too. But I'd been put off going to church by in-fighting between christians (I was the Pastors daughter). So, I have no excuse. I don't blame God, I knew the score. Do not marry a non-believer. Hubby did become a Chrsitian. But it's all died down.

My hubby, has spoilt so many family occasions, picking a fight with me. Ruining things for me. But when he switches the charm on - well, he is spectacular!!

so, Yes, a strong man, a christian man who I respected, I think I would naturally submit myself too. But I am so sorry to say this - I am the head (relucantly) of the house. Until God does a work in My hubby, he is not fit to lead. And that is the sad, sad truth. Please don't think, I need to trust him more, let him make decisions. He doesn't. He lets me do all the hard choices. He's a foolish man. I have tried everyting. Now I will put up with hjim, pray for him, and eventually leave him as soon as I can without distressing children. I cannot submit to aman who doesn't lead in any way. In fact he's a bully.

The submissive portions of the bible reside only in the old Testiment if I am not mistaken. .. There is no room in the new testiment for submission and inequality.

Posted by: Joy on September 28

Well, indeed, you are mistaken, sister. What is widely accepted in our overfeminized society here as an ultimate truth is neither from the Old nor New Testaments � it�s only our own religion invented by some �dynamic� preachers according to the gospels of this world and demands of the flesh in order to please their audience! The number of many perfect examples of true submission is given by our Lord Jesus Himself � just read about it in the Gospel of John only! The problem for many of us is that there is no other way to know Him better than to go after Him, step by step. Yet His cross is so unpopular in America. On the other hand, not knowing Him enough doesn�t allow us to be not just little children, always weak, always demanding, but overcomers! However, that is the goal � to live victoriously some day! If a Christian person wants to try some drink, some worldly stuff here and there because he or she wants to act against something they don�t like in the church, I would say, folks, just try to take a look at WWJD! He was submissive to His Father to the very end we call salvation. This poor girl was given the only lesson of submission to the men, I suspect, somewhat abusing their power by using the word of God their own way only, but there is the way for Andrea and the rest of us of lovingly, willingly following Christ. Finally, I�d allow myself a sentence - we do not serve the Lord, because we submit to some right people, but we do serve our neighbors because we serve Him first. God bless you! Viktor, Light Springs min., US-Ukraine

Dear Andrea, thanks for bringing up this topic, specifically submission in marriage. I have struggled with it for a long time. I have been reading some of the replies and it almost seems to me that some men are a tiny bit defensive.

If there is one thing I can't stand, it is men who think they are always right and try to impose their will on me or other women. And I know a lot of those. Why do I dislike them so much? Because they don't see me. The think my opinion matters less because I am a woman. They don't care to listen.

I find this humiliating. However, there are, of course, others who do really see other people around them and respect them (respect is always something someone should earn, you never get it for free). I have been blessed with a kind-hearted man who cares about my and my opinion, and who loves me, and not my ability to submit.

He is also man enough to admit that he does not always know what is best for our family and that he is sometimes tired of being the leader.

I�ve noticed that men tend to be a little defensive about their leading part, as mentioned in the bible. All you family guys out there, defending your position as a family leader, you're at danger of forgetting that you DO NOT have to do it alone: that is why God gave you a wife.

I want to put it the other way around here: God gave Adam a wife to help and support him, as Adam was feeling lonely.

When you want to be leading all the time, and taking charge, you are distancing yourself from your wife and family and you put yourself in danger of isolating yourself.

Lean on your wife. Communicate with her about your worries and issues. Allow her to be a part of you and your life. SEE her. Love her.

Interesting article:

believe me, you weren't 'missing out' by not growing up with TV. There are so many negative influences in the world nowadays, that TV just adds to it (though there are some good things - like being able to hear Charles Stanley's sermons)...!

and as for the pants issue, i don't understand why women finds it hard to dress up to attend church. If they were going to a fancy formal party they would.... even moreso should they do so for church: to show respect to our Saviour and want to dress modestly - after all, don't we usually wear pants most other times in life?!

But then sometimes i think it's just a 'rebellious spirit' - i want to do things "my" way type attitude, i won't let 'rules' dictate. Hmmm, even though this is a minor issue, i'm wondering in what other major issues that God speaks to them in, they are 'compromising' their actions/ways...?

I grew up in the same sort of legalism you spoke of. I agree with you regarding the spirit of control and extra-biblical insistence on certain translations and culottes :-). BUT, be careful little lips what you say. There are some who may read your reaction and wrongfully use the freedom we have in Christ. It's about Him. . . period.

The word of God says; THat God is the same yesterday, today , and forever. That means His written word does not change, even tho this might be the 21st century.
This means that what ever God has commanded us to do, this is what we are to do , even tho others may not agree.We are subject to the LORd. And the word say's that a husband is to be the spiritual leader of the home. We are to be obedient even as sarah calling her husband lord. We are how ever to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I do not believe that God wants a women or a man to live in a life threatening relationship.But at the same time i am not an authorty on what one should or should not do.We are all to take up our own cross and follow after God, daily. I have how ever lived thru a relationship with an abusive mate. which when i got out of it, it threw me into not wanting to take another man's word for anything. With time , I have learned that my trust is not in a man , but in the LORD.
i am to submit to the ways of the LORD, and to give my husband up to the LORD , for HIM to guide and direct. So that i am able to submit to my husband in a Godly manner. According to the written Word.

Andrea:

Be careful not to let your freedom become entanglement or even an excuse for justified bitterness.

Your post is quite good, but it certainly resonates your need to move from the legalistic to freedom in Christ. Often it is our intent to rid ourselves of the legalistic, but can throw the baby out with the bath water.

Submission based upon Ephesians 5:21-23 is often missed in that we must first regard the submission to each other in reverence to Christ. Then we get stuck on the verse that applies to the opposite sex. The bridge is that women should submit as unto the Lord. Does men love their wives as Christ love the church? Meaning are men embracing the true meaning of love as defined by Paul in 1 Cor. 13. If this is so, then any woman would willing submit and would desire to submit. Who could pass up submission when one is loved as Christ loved the church. It is important that we apply the scripture to ourselves first.

I have read the article and many of the comments. I was married at 21 and two-and-a-half years later, I am still with my husband.

I grew up with an abusive and controling father who treated my mother, me, and my brother horribly. I did not go to church as a child.

This concept of submission has troubled me for years. The Bible is correct when it talks about men loving us as Jesus loved the church and we must respect them. You cannot have a good marriage if the two parts are not in place.

I am one of those "a type" women....demanding but passionate. God is always putting me in check. However I strive to live in God's ways. I always try to remind myself that I am one of God's reflections. The reason I am here on earth is to reflect Jesus' love so that others will come to him.

My husband grew up in a legalistic church and I did not attend church until 19. I started out in a catholic church. I do appreciate the church I attended thn, but I eventually found the right church and it is non-denominational.

I recently studied the song of solomon. That book of the bible is hard to understand. However, once I knew what it says, dating and marriage is wonderful if it is pursued and practiced the way God wants it to be.

My husband was diagnosed with thyroid cancer not long before we got married. For a long time I was forced to be the "head" of the household. Now he has been able to step up to the plate and start to fufill his role as a man.

The sweetest thing is that the idea of women submitting to men really troubles my husband because he believes in equality in relationships. I can tell you that where he has weaknesses, I have strengths and vice versa. We are truly "one" but we serve Jesus first.

I don't have all the answers, but what I do know is that God will. He will let you know if you are on the wrong track or not.

Thank you Andrea for your article. This topic needs to be discussed more.

I have read most of the posts above and beleive the Bible has some very clear words on submitting. Ephesians 5:21 to the end of the chapter says "submit to one another out of reverence to Christ. Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.... Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her ..." The chapter ends with "each one must love his wife as he loves himself and the wife must respect her husband. "Submitting does not mean being one another's doormat. Woman need to be loved and cherished by their husbands. Men need above all to be respected by their wives.

I remarried 26 years ago to a man who saw the result of a woman abused in marriage and together we have tried to live by this passage. We did not understand it at the beginning as we do now, but we have learned to value each other in these roles and we will always be learning. We left a mainline church 8 years ago and now attend a charismatic church. We see people at both ends of the spectrum in both the churches we attended. There are those who follow and those who seek out what God has planned for each of us individually and as a couple. I believe it is important to test all we hear against what God has to say. In all things God sees the heart and he will respond to those with a right heart , even as we sin. God gave us all free will so it is up to us to make the choices as to how we live. We will only reach others including an unbelieving or erring spouse or a stranger who crosses our path when they see how much we care before they care how much we know.

People, People, People...
Long before Andrea was born God wrote the days of her life. He knew she was going to write this blog, infact he had already written it for her (Psalm 139:16). She feels the way she does because God created her to question legalism and submission. Even though some of you do not agree with what she said, remember she is submitting to God. Her blog maybe just the words someone else needs to hear. If only one woman is saved from a bad marriage or gets out from under a bad Pastor, Andrea did what God has ordained in her life. Only God knows the purpose of Andrea's life and who am I to question his plan!
Andrea,
God is taking you on the trip of a life time. Everything you have ever been through is for his purpose. Keep going with God, it only gets better!!!!

Just as Jesus predicted many have come in his name and re-worked his very basic teachings and added things which have no basis in scripture or are outmoded interpretations. We have free will so that what we give of ourselves is also freely given. Whenever I see someone choosing to be harsh or judgemental or mean of Spirit in the name of their faith I try to talk to them and gently show them- we see God through our personality, our cultures, our education and the teaching of others. The important thing is- we see God. There is only one God, and we Christians need to serve God by following Jesus. That's based on loving God and loving others as ourselves. Don't worry- love even them that seem full of hate, but don't let anyone get between you and God either, which of course abuse often does. For anyone who is being harmed by their family or church- seek support and counsel and trust what God is revealing in your prayers. Anyone who is telling you they have answers which seem to go against God in your prayers- you need to think for yourself. Think of Jesus, speaking out against the accepted order, with love and compassion to all, and dying in order to do so. Where you will submit- do it to God and be guided by God inside your own heart first. 'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.' Luke 4:8

I believe that you all are too hard on Keith. If he is seeking Gods will and wants to be a Godly man who are you to put him down for that. The scriptures are clear on what the role of the man is. ( I did not read nor hear in his tone that he was abusesive to women )

MY heart aches for those of you who have been in a terrible marriage. But that is no reason to group all men the same. They can't all be labeled bad. Just as it would be wrong to say that because there are women prostitutes out there I must be one. I am not, I am a godly woman seeking to be all God wants for me therefore I read his word daily and I ask him to open my eyes to the truth of his word. Ultimately that is the only way that I will be the person he wants of me. I also have had to look at submission and submit. Yes there were subjects that made and make it very hard to submit to. But when I live my life as God commands me in his word and obey I am blessed beyond what I ever expected. I have been married for over 20 years, we dated for 3 years prior, it has not always been joy and laughter but I have always known since our second date that this man loved me and that would never change. It was some time later that I knew I loved him and that would never change, five years later we found Jesus and I am continually learning everday that I can do better in our marriage for I still have my emotions and at times they get the better of me. I am not proud of that and I have to say I was wrong. The same is true of my husband. We know we are not perfect. I know that I am to be a helpmate for my husband and I am proud of that.

Although I wear pants in my daily life and to church it has not stopped me from receiving blessings and hearing from my God. The Holy Spirit speaks to me when I am dressed in a dress at church or at home, in my shorts exercising or shooting hoops with my kids, or in my pajamas asleep in my bed. Our clothes do not make us spiritual and godly. Of course I do choose what type of clothes I will wear. I do not wear things that will draw attention and ungodly thoughts from others. Clothes are what people look at and you would be wrong to say that I am not godly because I wear pants or that I am a radical liberal woman because I do. You know nothing of my spiritual life, my walk with God just by looking at me. Many who don't know me would be very surprised to hear of my life in Christ and how the Holy Spirit speaks to me. I have a very close relationship with my Lord. That is another subject.

I think many of you should check out "The Empty Box" by Walt Larimore. I read it now and then. Also he has a tape out from a couples seminar he did years ago. You may find that at Focus on the Family. He talks at this seminar about husbands loving your wives as Christ loved the church, submission, why we - women were created.

I personally think that Andrea still has much to learn about the scriptures. Andrea is the only one who can ask God to reveal truths to her and make the scriptures clear that she would truley see and understand. When she does there will be blessing she did not imagine. Read Colossians 4: 2-6, James 1:19-27 (27)... keep oneself from being polluted by the world.' It would give Satan great joy to have us polluted by the world. Andrea needs to find true forgiveness then she will not sound so bitter when she writes. She will find it will not make her less of a person to submit as God said, or to leave worldly things behind. I also read James 3:1-12 and am reminded that I can also become (do) what I hate which is verbal abuse. For I am no better than the one using verbal abuse on me if I in turn lash out in my hurt and anger and do not find forgiveness.

Worldly ways are not always good for us. There are many things I have walked away from and I live a rich life. I don't go to bars with friends, we did away with our cable tv years ago and my kids are better for it. They see what is on tv when they are out at others homes and they know what is godly and what is not. They make good choices when they consider God first. They also know the importance of godliness both for themselves and for the person they may potential date. I applaud them for that. God will bless it.
I believe it is possible for couples to live as God instruct us to in the Bible. He did not set us up to fail. It is possible for us as it has been for the many before us to be what God has planned without being a doormat. There are those out there in the world who are just that - of the world and ruled by Satan. I believe there are truely godly men out there, men to become godly and women who are and are to be godly as well as all are able to submit as God planned. His word is true, he care, he has made it possible for us all to achieve. His word has been true, is true and will still be true years from now into eternity.

I still choose to live by Gods word and still am blessed.

To Keith and others like him, remain true to God and his word, stive daily to be the man God wants you to be

After reading this article I have to wonder what your definition of "Legalism" is. It seems that you and most of the people who posted comments consider a church with stringent rules, for lack of a better word, to be a legalistic church.

The meaning of legalism is the belief that following rules is necessary for salvation. Therefore, a legalistic church is a church that teaches you must in essence work for your salvation by following certain rules, either from the Bible or the church itself. An example of this is the Catholic faith.

As a true Christian, having accepted Christ as my personal savior, I know that I do not have to nor can do anything to merit salvation. On the other hand, God has given us guidelines to follow.

I sometimes wonder how Paul would react if he saw the things we see today in the church. I'm sure most people today would call him a legalist. I do not know anyone who lives a life as stringent as he did.

I could go on but I will stop with this. Ask yourself why you do not want to be submissive. Is it your pride? Why do you want so badly to go against what God has told us in His Word? Why do you not have faith to trust God and believe that since He created us He knows what is best for us and indeed had our best interest in mind when He gave us His Word.

I attend a IFB church and I appauld my pastor who tells it like it is and not how the world would like it to be. I do submit but it doesn't mean I am a doormat. Not all IFB churches are that way. But churches now days seem to try to be men pleasers and I am so afraid that some people are going to end up in hell and not know why. Afterall the world said it was okay and by the world I mean some pastors, teachers and churches.

the Problem with churches is that they never look past the verses that urge wives to submit which require the husbands to love their wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. they are urged to love and cherish their wives as they would their own flesh. (Eph. 5:25-33 KJV)"
if these verses were considered then the church would not require women to submit to abusive husbands who do not follow the example of Christ.

Why is it that they always point our the submissive part of the verse and leave out the rest. The ispired word of God also instructs husband to treat their wives with respect & love.

It really would be nice to hear that part of the verse too. God created us all in his image and loves us. So we should be treated with kid gloves.

Wow, I've read through the posts and am pretty amazed!

Women saying "you go girl" to someone who isn't married but is commenting...as an authority...on a submission and being a wife.

I've been married for 13 years. Submission is against my nature but God chose this man to be my husband. MORE THAN ANYTHING I WANT TO PLEASE GOD! how can I hate the gift that God has given me...God has called me to be his helper, his wife, his love. My godly calling and purpose is to help him be the man that God has called him to be. My heart leaps for joy when I see him succeed! My heart comforts and protects when he doesn't. I am an earthly ambassador of God's love and grace to my husband not just when he's the husband I want him to be but even more when he's not.

Submission isn't about who makes more money, who does more housework. Oh I put 90% effort yesterday so I'm only going to put in 5% effort today. It's not about keeping score that only leads to resentment and SIN!!!!

I share my husbands downfalls with him and no one else but God...because God is the only one that can get him back on the path. He is the only one that can change his heart. Not talking about him behind his back honors my husband and builds respect and honor in our relationship.

Is he the spiritual head of the house? He tries to be and I honor him by helping him meet that responsibility and try not to belittle him or dislike him because he fails sometimes.

Do I still have a mind. YOU BET! Do I have an opinion? YOU BET! But in being submissive to my husband I have had to learn how to express myself in a godly way! I've had to learn to make sure that my heart is in tune with what God wants for me, for him and our family. Am I harboring a bad attitude, selfish motives?

Would I mindlessly follow my husband...not if it lead me to sin..Do I get heard 100% of the time...no...but I get on my knees and tell my heavenly Father about my hurt feelings..I KNOW that He hears me. I know that He will honor and bless me because I sacrificed being heard for being a godly wife.

Try Jensgems blog for another take on complimentarianism.

sometimes understanding one another is a good value in order to maintain ones relationship with the other. misundertanding one factor that will lead to a broken relationship whetehr your friend or your spouse or love ones or broken family and instead of bonding or togetherness in the family its the other way around. pride is one thing that should be avoided. sometimes male power or woman power dont want to be over powered by each the other. humility or humblessness or be humble is loving God in all respects. Jesus was born in a manger showing us to be humble and to practice humility orlow profile. God Bless

I grew up in the whole legalistic, culotte-wearing, movie-avoiding culture as well. I feel your pain.
Submission? Check out some of Brian McLaren's books. It is not much of an issue for me...my husband respects my intelligence enough that if I have serious doubts about something, he is hesitant to move forward. It works the same in reverse. I don't think I've ever had to consciously make myself "submit."

My, Andrea, you have a way of stirring people to discussion. Certainly a lot of passion here.

If we will read Eph 5 carefully we will see that both husbands and wives as are to submit to one another. The wife was created to be a suitable ("meet" in the KJV) helper to her husband. How can I be a helper to my husband if I do not share my ideas and concerns honestly when I disagree with him? I must do it respectfully and lovingly, not proudly or harshly. I am to help him be the best man he can be. That doesn't mean constantly pointing out what he is doing wrong. More like giving encouragement and praise for the things he is doing (or trying to do) right. That, of course, does not come as naturally as complaining. Someone has said that a wife needs to remember that it is her job to make her husband happy and God's job to make him good and if she gets these reversed, she will not have a pleasant marriage. Let us practice being kind, pleasant, loving, and gracious.

Are we looking for ways to honor the Lord and serve one another or are we looking for ways to get what we want? I am as selfish as the next person (probably more so) and marriage has sometimes shown that so plainly that I can't stand it. I didn't marry until I was 40, so I had plenty of time to get used to doing things my way.

I am blessed to be married to a kind, steady, easy-to-get-along-with, godly man who loves me far more than I deserve. The more I find ways to show him respect, the more he finds ways to show me how much he loves me.

I recently read a book on marriage that points out the main problem in marriages is not whether we have an egalitarian or authoritarian view. The main problem is that we are all selfish. Until we see the evil and repent, no system will help our marriages.

As for legalism, anything we do that we think makes us "better" is a form of it. If we can keep in focus who we are and what Christ has done in forgiving us, we should not have a big problem with that.

I thought Bev was on the right track in pointing out the two-sided submission emphasis of Eph 5, but then she seemed to lapse into the groveling "help him be the best man he can be" mindset. The Eph 5 emphasis does tell us to submit to one another. It does emphasize submission by the wife and love (giving of oneself for the benefit of another) by the husband. But it's not to be the best man or best woman. It is to be the best child of God. A marriage should not be compared to a company that needs a single CEO. A marriage is not a push for one's own agenda so that a decision-maker is necessary. A marriage is supposed to mirror God's relationship in the Trinity--two persons, one will. That happens when we submit to each other--not in corporate decision-making but in concern for each other's benefits. It's surprising how harmonious relationships are when we stop pushing for ourselves and begin pushing for each other. Decisions don't become arguments as to who's right, but rather as to how well we can build each other up. Creation put man and woman together in harmony, supporting each other in performing a common mission. The sin and the curse destroyed that to clamor for control with the man as eventual ruler. Let's get back to the created ideal.

I met Jesus Christ in a nightclub. I guess you can say I was a self made atheist cause of the brutal death of my mother. When Jesus introduced Himself and showed me my life like watcing tv I was convinced that He was and is alive and real. I found a church to go to. I soon realized what Joseph must have felt when his brothers threw him in a ditch. For years I was different from the church that said I couldnot wear pants, no make-up, no listening to secular music etc. Mind you I was a drug dealer, exotic dancer and prostitute among other things. Skinning a fish that they did not catch. I was told I had street thinking, duh. Said I was too ambitious. Long story short God called me to the ministry, many people was delivered and set free by the power of God. I'm called in question for being seen in public playing tennis. I'm a leader they said, not to be displaying.
After 12 yrs I left organized crime. I went back to drug dealing which is suppose to be organized crime. I said to my Jesus, I love you but your so called saints ain't, they are causing people not to know you so I rather go to hell (foolish me) in a rolls royce then go to hell in the building. I left Aug. 25, 1989. "I Am" appeared to me Aug 25, 1996 when I was heading to make a drug purchase. "I Am" said He understood why I became the woman that I became and said I was still His chosen, He loved me and He would use my life to draw many people to Himself. He led me to a church and specifically stated to me that He was going to test their love walk. Instructed me to be myself and not to conform. I did. They put me out after I was invited to pray openly and the whole church ended up on the floor slain by the power of God. I was questioned by one of the ministers, he ask, "why did God put such a strong mantle of anointing on someone like you", he grab me and threw me up against the wall and told me to submit to him. My response, knock him out (mind you I just received restoration) but God stopped me. I said to this minister that he did not like whom Jesus picked and was jealous of a woman. The congregation loved me I was told because I pray from the heart to my God saying what they wanted to say but out of fear they did not say. This church had 4,000 whites with 3 blacks, me being 1 of them. They gave me the boot said I was not submissive enough and the people see me as a leader. Next church was black they put me out with my 4yr old son, this time because of my tatoos. I was raped by a preacher trying to resurrect my prostitution life. Finally fed up I left the denominations and the buildings. I am blessed. Now I have a small ministry in my home and a web that reaches thousands. I love those dearly who comes to my home. We love us some Jesus Christ. He came to set this captive free. Broken to mend. www.sheribrownministries.org.

I love your independent liberal spirit. I am no college student, but at 58 I am still tired of sitting in congregations and listening to the traditional conservative viewpoint being preached as the only truth in serving Christ. I love Christ and I love serving him. However, I cannot abide by the second class citizenship for women that fundamental churches support.